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 Post subject: Re: Papu marked kukri
PostPosted: Sat Mar 14, 2015 11:21 am 
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Thanks for the grip shots Paul,

Here are mine for comparison...


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 Post subject: Re: Papu marked kukri
PostPosted: Sat Mar 14, 2015 3:20 pm 
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Two of them! You move fast Chris! :lol: Well done. :mrgreen:

mrcjgscott wrote:
I was searching through some old posts, hunting for something else, and found this Papu from member sta94, which has an interesting Kaudi....


That looks like the same as the one on my Papu (and my new longleaf), just mine are orientated in opposite direction

Image


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 Post subject: Re: Papu marked kukri
PostPosted: Sat Mar 14, 2015 3:47 pm 
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Paul W wrote:
Two of them! You move fast Chris! :lol: Well done. :mrgreen:


Again, I was very lucky, and this one fell into my lap, so I had to accept! There was the chance of a third too, but somebody else beat me to it!!


Paul W wrote:
That looks like the same as the one on my Papu (and my new longleaf), just mine are orientated in opposite direction


Quite right, perhaps the kami had one to many with lunch? I can't recall seeing another kaudi at that angle...


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 Post subject: Re: Papu marked kukri
PostPosted: Sat Mar 14, 2015 4:27 pm 
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mrcjgscott wrote:
perhaps the kami had one to many with lunch? I can't recall seeing another kaudi at that angle...


Perhaps too much rakshi, but more likely a combination of illiteracy/lack of attention to detail.
By way of illustration, see the changes over time in a newly made model with a similar kaudi:
Top - original from which commercial version was copied;
Middle - early copy by shop foreman closely following original;
Bottom - version produced several years later by newly hired kami.

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 Post subject: Re: Papu marked kukri
PostPosted: Sat Mar 14, 2015 11:51 pm 
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Thanks for posting those Berkley. They're a solid illustration of an effect we see all the time in kukri production, the copy, of a copy, of a copy...


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 Post subject: Re: Papu marked kukri
PostPosted: Sun Mar 15, 2015 3:46 pm 
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mrcjgscott wrote:

Quite right, perhaps the kami had one to many with lunch? I can't recall seeing another kaudi at that angle...


Many of the kami I saw working in Dharan were rolling up fat buds of the local herbal weed into tight balls then tucking them into there cheek while they slaved away in the heat & dust.


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 Post subject: Re: Papu marked kukri
PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 6:12 pm 
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Spiral wrote:
Many of the kami I saw working in Dharan were rolling up fat buds of the local herbal weed into tight balls then tucking them into there cheek while they slaved away in the heat & dust.


That might effect my aim too! I like the angle though, certainly makes for a unique piece! Perhaps we should try for an unusual kaudi thread too? I have always enjoyed JP's collage of kaudi from one of his calenders, perhaps we could have a go at making a more up to date version?


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 Post subject: Re: Papu marked kukri
PostPosted: Sat Jul 04, 2015 10:26 pm 
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mrcjgscott wrote:
Thanks for the grip shots Paul,

Here are mine for comparison...


Sorry Chris only just noticed these. Interesting to see. The one on the right has had the two holes left by the screws for the butt plate filled in, but the one on the left looks like it never had a butt plate fitted. Could be a rehandle perhaps?


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 Post subject: Re: Papu marked kukri
PostPosted: Sun Jul 05, 2015 4:20 pm 
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Paul W wrote:
Sorry Chris only just noticed these. Interesting to see. The one on the right has had the two holes left by the screws for the butt plate filled in, but the one on the left looks like it never had a butt plate fitted. Could be a rehandle perhaps?


Well spotted Paul, I hadn't noticed the filling job! I am getting old. A period job too, makes you wonder.......

Yes, I think lefty may well be a replacement!


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 Post subject: Re: Papu marked kukri
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2015 8:53 pm 
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I thought I'd share a few pictures relating to the unusual mark on the spines of many of these kukri.

The first image is a composite of the seven examples of this character that I have seen so far. Six were on Papu's, one was on a large longleaf stamped for the battalion Kaa Baa (or perhaps Vaa) which I believe could be Kali Bahadur. It shows the variety and drift in the stamping of this mark.

Attachment:
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Having spent some time staring at scripts recently, these markings and translations are starting to make a bit more sense to me now. It is a fascinating and bewildering subject for sure!

So the possible translations proposed for this symbol to date are:
1) Tra+Pra. A fusion of the top two characters in the pic below.
2) Nja+Pra. A fusion of the characters in the second row.


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My own stab at this is Nraa. I have no idea if these consonants and vowels can actually combine in this way, I just used same-same vs different observational powers. The bottom character is N (with the wiggly line above, turns out there are three ways to write N!)+Ra. Now, if the vowel diacritics are the same as in the examples below, then it could be Nraa or NRA (with a line above the a character).

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more Pa variations.gif
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I'd love to hear opinions from other members, particularly those who speak the language. Any guesses as to what these combinations could mean?

On a separate note I just thought I'd mention that I have seen Papu's stamped to three battalions so far:
1) Most common is the symbol Rai for First Rifles
2) Kaa Baa, probably Kali Bahadur
3) one example marked Sa Ma Ra, probably for Samar Jung


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 Post subject: Re: Papu marked kukri
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2015 9:53 pm 
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Thank you Paul! Great work with these!

So if for arguments sake, the so called Kathmandu cache had C.10,000 or so long leaves & 200 or so Papu marked kukri, but of the C.20 or so studied, 3 different regiments are noted... I wonder if they could have been carried by a particular Rank or duty role?

I am idley musing on Senior NCOs ? , physically powerful & characterful men l men who could carry a prestigious weapon but didn't need to chop timber.... Or low level Officers perhaps... not from the Rana family...

Or Standard bearers or some such... For the same reason... Mind you probably not many standard bearers in one battalion! Best forget that one! :oops:

I wonder if the more unusual spine markings you show could be allied to particular Nepalese ranks?

I have seen similar spine markings on very fancy high end Gold kothis though, I seem to recall.... So could even be Arsenal Palace store marks perhaps?

More questions than answers as ever...

spiral


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 Post subject: Re: Papu marked kukri
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2015 8:16 am 
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Interesting ideas Spiral!

I had initially thought that these were all issued to the First Rifles as all the examples I'd seen that had a spine inscription had the 'Rai' symbol on them. However, subsequently spotting two marked Kaa Baa and one Sa Ma Ra destroys that theory and highlights the problem of making assumptions based on such small sample groups. It could be that these were issued to certain ranks across a large range of battalions, we will need to greatly increase our number of samples to examine this idea further. Can anyone tell us how many men were in a nepalese battalion and how many officers of various ranks there would have been in each battalion? It'd be great if we could collectively unravel this particular mystery.


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 Post subject: Re: Papu marked kukri
PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2017 4:59 pm 
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I've recently been looking at characters again and I found an interesting resource at the British Library. It's part of their endangered archives project, they've put up hundreds of documents from the 1700's to 1960. http://eap.bl.uk/database/results.a4d?p ... 72;r=18467

I figured it would be worth browsing through some documents from around the time we think these kukri were made (1890-1920) to see how the language was written and see if anything jumped out at me. It did.

I spotted what I believe is the character on these kukri many times in texts. See how many times you can spot it in this one:
Attachment:
sri svasthani vratakatha 1900's.jpg
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I'm convinced it's nothing complicated at all, just a long A (the one with a bar on top). And it looks to me like they used both ways of writing it on kukri spines. I've made a crude pic below to illustrate.
Attachment:
spine-stamp-comparrison.jpg
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 Post subject: Re: Papu marked kukri
PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2017 5:20 pm 
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Excellent Paul! so it a bit like the top bar on a T or a J in ... however long or short it is its still a T or a J!

Brilliant deduction! Thanks for sharing it with us!

spiral


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 Post subject: Re: Papu marked kukri
PostPosted: Sat Jul 01, 2017 3:14 pm 
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Great stuff Paul ,here's picts of my Papu again ,one is a first Gurkha rifles one 890 grams 15.5 inch long ,has a great feel and balance to it ,is fully marked on the spine and butt end ,the other is a beast, an unmarked one 970 grams nearly 16 inch blade ,got this by accident fron IMA was supposed to be a long leaf lol


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