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PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2017 5:48 pm 
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Thank you Captain for your response. I'd love someone to PM me with their reasonings behind the 'fake' and 'spurious stamp' comments then please.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2017 11:37 pm 
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First of all a welcome to new members and greetings to old.

The battle of NEED to know vs. WANT to know...

The Khukuri is clearly original, no doubt about that. The brass crescent moon marked pieces are nice pieces!

The markings indeed Spiral has a point, looking at them blown up there is a few odd things that i had not noticed earlier.
It is absolutely not the normal way but a close try.

Should it be fake or what happened views may differ.

Many of us here are old members and have gotten to know each others over the years and a level of trust and way of talking. We all know the forums and such are being searched for info to be used to make fake stamped and fake labeled kukris, that we do not want to contribute too.

As a new member sure it maybe off setting and not what you needed or wanted, have patience, learn, gain and give trust over time. The more you see the genuine marks the easier it gets to spot the differences but it takes time, time in this regards is a precious friend.

best regards,
Krishna


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 07, 2017 7:14 am 
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Singhaofdarjheeling thank you for your courteous reply and further gentle explanation. I do indeed of course understand the ethics and trust issue at play here. I am not new to military knives and marking but I am indeed fairly new to the wide world of kukris and the intriguing history, manufacture, types, markings etc. I am here to learn and there is much to learn.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 07, 2017 9:20 pm 
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Thanks Krishna for your thoughtful response .

Its like walking a tightrope sometimes...

Doorkeeper can you clean out the grime inside the stamps, using something that leaves no marks on the metal, so there no damage or fresh surfaces to them, use bamboo slivers, carbon fibre, platic picks or whatever so the stamps can be studied free of surface dirt.

I find baby oil and surgical spirit help soften the gunk if that required.

That will help I and others determine greater detail of them. Which will obviously help, with a more in depth appraisal.

For the killer pick maximum pixels, even if trashing the average laptop screen is fine..

Thank you.

Spiral


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2017 5:57 am 
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Thank you Spiral. I will certainly attempt to gently clean and rephotograph using a macro setting. I was a field archaeologist and artefacts conservator many years ago so that wont be a problem. I've had a much closer look at the markings and overall condition of the kukri since my original post and whilst parts of the blade appear rubbed down in places, the recessed patina in the stamped markings is very old to my archaeologically trained eye. I will clean gently to see what if anything gets removed and take some more photos for discussion.

Having collected some militaria and military knives for 30 years, I am wondering if perhaps (if the stamps were not added straight after it was made) the stamps were added 10-20 years later when the kukri was 'issued' to another soldier etc? Certainly on bayonets and other items there is a strong history of re-issue and re-use and therefore later stampings were frequently added during their 'work' history.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2017 6:45 am 
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Thank you.

That would be good!

Kukris certainly often had long working knives and more than one owner.

I Look forward to our further study , with better material evidence...... I would love to be wrong, because it looks nice.


spiral


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 10:01 am 
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Spiral, Ive now cleaned them very gently but thoroughly with camellia oil (markings were soaked for an hour), a cotton bud and a soft wooden toothpick. Hope these pictures help. I have enhanced one

To my eye, upon closer examination now (and just going from other markings/stamps I've seen on bayonets, rifles etc over the last 30 years) these stamps aren't newly added in my opinion. Whilst I know WWI/WWII stamp/die sets obviously still exist and sadly can be re-used to fake markings still, my current opinion (though I know only a little about kukris) is, the kuk was stamped in the first quarter or half of the 20th century at latest as the recessed patina/internal metal colour appears deep, old and therefore most likely original to the early life of the kukri in my humble opinion but I'm always open to other more expert opinions.

Your thoughts and expertise please. Thank you for your time.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 9:14 am 
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I soaked the stamped marks with Camellia oil for about an hour and then cleaned them all with a cotton bud and soft wood toothpick.

I have enhanced one photo but unsure if that's helped. (apologies for spotlights glare)

To my eye, looking at the slightly cleaner stamps, they still look original to the early life of the kukri or perhaps the first half of the 20th century (if the Kukri was issued and stamped for military purposes etc a little later).

Whilst, obviously, period die stamps et al are still sadly used by fakers on many miitaria items, bayonets etc, the depth of stamping on the spine here, along with the deep but natural and old patina, is consistent in my humble opinion with the age of the kukri or at very least the first quarter/half of the 20th century.

Hope these pictures are of use to you Spiral (and anyone else too with expertise like Spiral). Many thanks.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 10:15 pm 
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Great photos. Thank you.

Sorry to say Im 100% sure from them that the stamps were done decades after the kukri was made.
The photos reveal the evidence.

Decades after it was made the stamps would not have been that font etc.

Its a great kukri and most people would love the stamps... Whoever did that has stamped knives kukris before and does it as well as the professional knife makers I know.

Sorry to say it, but honestly, the evidence is there.

Spiral


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 4:56 am 
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Thank you Spiral. I'm off to check up on fonts now! lol


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 7:41 am 
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Hi Doorkeeper.

The fonts would be good for c. ww1...era.

Not for decades later...

But using your archaeological background, study of the photos or the marks, and the time line of them, Im sure it will suddenly click for you ...

Spiral


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 1:55 pm 
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Spiral, I've done a fair few hours of research now examing fonts/ stamp markings and I don't agree with it being a much later font after checking fonts used on military metalwork, rifles, bayonets etc.

I checked back to the Boer War period for a cross section of fonts used globally (with some understandable slight variations allowed from east to west globally) and worked my way forward to WWI period stamped items and then WWII. I then also checked later stamp groupings from the 1950's to the 1980's.

What I've discovered is based and evidenced against stamps used c.1900 - 1920 and I believe the stamps on the kukri spine are actually seemingly correct for the period.(I had to ask a militaria specialist friend to double check the comparisons I'd found before I posted this reply to prevent wishful thinking on my part).

Please compare against the pics below and you will see matching stamp typography to mine it appears (allowing for varying depths and angles of partial/glancing strikes and miniscule global variations of course found across British colonies and their militaria etc).

Ive managed to reference the font style on stamped items and have adequately matched all the numbers '2', '4', '9' and the 'G' from my kukri against authentic, stamped and accurately dateable WWI items.

Certainly they are of course, variations in that period e.g some of the '4's have a pointed top and some have a tiny flat tip for example so my hunt is now on for the names of fonts used in that period.

I'm happy to be proved wrong if any evidence can be found but looking carefully at over 30 font/stamped WWI pieces I think the evidence for my WWI/Interwar period conclusion is there.

The first photo (below my original kukri spine photo for immediate reference) is a marking on a rifle butt plate WWI period, the others are WWI dated bayonets or rifle metalwork etc.

Based on this evidence (samples below), the stamps used on the kukri spine, appear to definitely be from the late 19th century/ WWI/ interwar period it appears.

(Although the other question could still be asked 'when was the kukri stamped then' of course, I'm fairly sure looking at the depth, recessed patina and texture et al, it appears to have been stamped in the first half of the 20th century but I'm fairly certain but it would be hard to prove 100% I feel.)

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 4:47 pm 
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Ok you think Im wrong..

I dont realy wont to get in a long discussion with someone who didnt even understand my last post.

I told you the fonts were correct for c.ww1 era.. of course they are! There sans serif! And thats why the faker used them.

Your kukris clearly re.stamped decades later, when such font wasnt used.

I wont explain another anomaly outside of that as I stated before, I font wish to help a rather expert faker get better in his work.

I know it is fake, most people even most kukri collectors wouldn't know the difference.

Ive studied hundreds of the fake kukris sold by just one faker alone. Yours is a perfect example of some his work.

It isnt a perfect example of any accurately provenanced kukri, Ive ever seen.

Your entitled to your thoughts, however wrong they may be.

You wanted to know about your kukri, Ive told you, first time you became upset.

We got past more that, you provided more photo evidence that confirms it was stamped decades later.

Know you think you You know your subject of fakes,stamps and restamps after a few hours on the net... Well its a good start.

Can I suggest before your argue any more you read instructions to British Army armourers type publications.

{And I would say hundreds of genuinely provenance and stamped kukri, but I realise that takes more than an afternoon on the net..}

Eventually the light may dawn.

Until then I suggest you enjoy kukris & post any others you get on another thread.

I dont wish to argue with you... I suggest you heed my advice.

spiral


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 5:00 pm 
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Interestingly Chris posted up a similar crescent stamped piece here: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1269

As luck would have it, two of the four digits stamped on it are a match; the 2 and 9. They are both a perfect match.

With regards to the authenticity of the stamps I was deferring to Spiral, who's knowledge of such things greatly exceeds my own. What does strike me as unusual is that these are supposedly Royal Nepalese Army pieces and I've never seen any RNA kukri stamped in such a manner. They have a fair variety; four digits, three digits, a letter and three digits, two letters and three digits. From what I have seen Unit marks, if applied, are in devanagari. 2/2 sounds like a Brit Indian style unit designation to me, but then again I know nothing. I'm not into the military side of things, I just like looking at kukris. :)


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 5:57 pm 
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Thanks Paul.

Its Indian made. That means it was made for British Indian army or private purchase in India.

The 2 is identical style front on the example belonging to Chris, The 9 slightly different but that not important.

The biggest unexplained error in Doorkeepers kukri {{Ignoring that it was stamped after many years of use.} is the regimental marking.

As I said, most kukri collectors would believe it. It was done in half right style, one people would like to believe.

Using font from apparent era of kukri.... Ignoring the fact it was clearly stamped later and xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx.{Edited to not teach fakers any more!}

spiral


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